National public hearings on Integrated Development Plans were recently hosted by the Department of Provincial and Local Government. Sithole Mbanga, CEO of the South African Cities Network spoke to DPLG's Derek Powell, Deputy Director General responsible for Intergovernmental Relations about them.
Sithole Mbanga: Derek the issue here is about IGR and the legislative process - putting together policy and legislation has come and gone, and the one thing that's for sure is that intergovernmental relations are not going to take place because of legislation. Therefore the IDP hearings I think were an excellent platform for intergovernmental relations. You had your local governments, your provinces, in certain instances you had your state owned enterprises. How did you feel after that about the IDP Hearings? Did you get a sense of what are likely to be the challenges for IGR implementation? Did we achieve what we set out to through the IDP Hearings?
Derek Powell: I think that you are right in your assessment of the challenges for Intergovernmental Relations. We had a fairly bold object when we went into the hearings. What we wanted to do was to enter into a dialogue, involving all three spheres of government and other role players on the impact of government action and investment within municipal spaces, looked at through the IDP.
That was the broadest statement of the objective, so we constructed a process which attempted to create that dialogue, and within the dialogue we had very specific objectives that we were looking at, for instance we wanted to get a sense of how municipalities in their IDP processes were actually connecting with communities, were these indeed reflections of participatory democracy as we had intended it to be in the Systems Act? How deep did that community dialogue go?
Secondly the extent to which Municipal IDPs were in fact echoing and engaging national priorities, announced in the programme of action and State of the Nation. That was a core aspect of our work in these meetings. And again we tried to construct a process that would bring in all the relevant players in looking at the extent to which national objectives were in fact being met. And I think thirdly to get a sense, because of the concern that's there, in the State about the capability of local government to implement its programmes, we wanted to get a sense of the capability and capacity issues. Obviously there is only so much that you can achieve in there sort of hearings and our intention was primarily, as you said, to create a platform for further work, and really through human relations and organisational relations to begin to take forward the commitments we had made in the intergovernmental relations legislation, for stronger forms of co-operation etc. By and large I think we achieved these objectives.
Sithole Mbanga: I can safely say from the feedback, and the meetings I attended, for me what has been established is something that says, 'colleagues, we need to talk more, we need to engage in dialogue more frequently in order that IDPs are more strategic.'
Derek Powell: Certainly there has been that view. I've never quite understood that view because I think the IDP is a fairly bold initiative if you think about it. It's a government of a space, it's fairly unique, it's a spatial plan. It's a spatial plan for a municipality, but more than that it's a spatial plan that reflects national regulatory responsibilities, because national government regulates water, electricity etc. So it, at one and the same time, must reflect the choices a municipality is making in order to respond to its communities and at the same time it must position that municipality within the aggregate of plans and intentions nationally.
Now I think the mistake that's often made in looking at the IDP is to think about local delivery as solely what goes on in a municipality, as opposed to local delivery being constructed within an entire state system, where more than one sphere of government has a role to play. Practical examples - one of the issues that came out in the hearings for me that really resonated was around Water Catchment Management Areas. The municipality that is affected by a dam that is suffering from algae infestations and derives its water sources from that and uses that to provide water to communities, and extend free basic services etc, that the problem of algae infestation can only be resolved through massive national investment. It's not something that can be localised, it has knock on consequences for that municipality, and it was precisely for that reason that local delivery has been a product of the structure of the state and government that we tried to, at the same time in the hearings, pilot a common appreciation for the sustainable development and for sustainable human settlement in the country, but looked at locally. So the work that the Presidency is leading currently, to create a mutual assessment framework for development choices through the national spatial development perspective, provincial growth and development strategies, the IDPs, was a core aspect of the way in which we constituted the process. When we looked at the strategic content of the IDPs, we were therefore in a sense also looking at the choices that other spheres of government were making and their impact on municipalities. That was the dialogue that we were after.
I think what you see more specifically around the IDP is a considerable amount of energy in our municipalities in their planning processes. We are beyond first generation issues of establishment and communicating our vision, that's bedded down. We are beyond simple checklists on the whole, where municipalities, perhaps at a second generation level, tick off compliance.
We are now into the realm of choices which have to be made within hard budget constraints over short and long time frames and although the quality of the IDP may vary, and in some places considerably, I think on the whole municipalities have made tremendous progress. IDP has become a rallying point throughout the country. People have got views about it. There is a knowledge that the IDP is important. Our job as DPLG is to use our locational advantage within the intergovernmental system to deepen that dialogue and to strengthen the type of strategic choices that are going to turn around municipalities and put them on a higher growth path.
Sithole Mbanga: I suppose the key aspect of the way forward is that phrase 'deepening the dialogue', and I am going to ask you how are we going to do it? And when I say 'we' - I am talking about all and sundry led by DPLG, led by the Presidency, SALGA and entities such as the Cities Network.
I just want to get back to a point that you raised, talking about the IDP having to have the ability to reflect on the spatial imperative of a municipality in relation to the whole. That whole being first and foremost the neighbouring municipalities, the province, national, up to international level. And I think that's the weakness of the IDP and I sometimes get the sense that even with the second generation IDPs, there is now a call for a spatial understanding. IDPs as you correctly say are a rallying point for all stakeholders in a particular space.
Sithole Mbanga: One of the things that I picked up in the hearings was the contrast between types of municipality in terms of their wealth. We might be forced to think about some of these things, some of which the President has spoken about. Project Consolidate is likely to give us some results, more perhaps than the IDP.
Some municipalities we may want to declare 'welfare states' because they have limited sources of revenue! Some municipalities, for example, don't want to accept that they are a rural municipality, and that their IDP wish list can't include that they want a university. In the past urban South Africa was dependent on rural South Africa, but now rural South Africa depends on what's happening in the urban areas. The point is that we need different approaches in different places.
Derek Powell: A spatial understanding of the economy is essential because we can't perpetuate apartheid, and we need to deal with the real issues facing our country. By forcing a strategic dialogue to take place we will see better choices being made. We are still quite new, and the system is little over five years old, but we are doing well if you compare us internationally. It is a process and that in itself is not a cop out.
The analysis of whether an economy is regionally or locally focussed is an issue. We did see in certain inputs a light-weight understanding of the economic role of a particular municipality in an economy. We need to deepen the quality of information and data, with the intention of placing the economy on a higher growth path, and by developing a strategic dialogue we will see better choices being made within IDPs. But this is a process.
We would like to concentrate more on municipal plans and budgets, and to develop dialogue as a culture and practice within government, to help deepen the impact of government.
The urban/rural dynamic is very complex and we only partly understand it and there has been very little research done. The urbanisation argument also needs to be assessed, and DPLG and the Presidency are working on a revised urban development framework at the moment.
Sithole Mbanga: What are going to be the key elements of deepening the dialogue? We've talked about the importance of high quality data, which at the moment is very skewed.
Derek Powell: The next steps will be very practical. We are finalising a high-level report on the hearings, with specific actions raised for each province. It's very detailed and it's a document that will sustain the dialogue. We'll use that report to create further dialogue on the next steps. We are also working with municipalities to engage and debate the issues that have arisen.
We are not a line department that builds houses or provides water, rather DPLG needs to act as a catalyst for IGR in this way, and construct the essence of debate. The emerging culture and philosophy in government now is about the importance of tackling problems as a collective, and not letting side issues, such as jurisdictional limitations get in the way. Project Consolidate and the IGR legislation are examples of this. What is mean is that we apply our distinctive functional responsibilities in a coherent way to produce a more efficient result.
Sithole Mbanga: One of the things that concerns me and the Cities Network is our understanding of intergovernmental relations beyond the country - international intergovernmental relations within the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and beyond. Over the last four years travel between Johannesburg and Luanda has doubled, and the Johannesburg International Airport is the central hub to Luanda. We are concerned that we are quite weak in understanding the implications and how these international relations impact on us at local government level.
The Johannesburg Development Agency for example is talking about creating a space for those involved in transit markets to store their goods, this would be part of Joburg's urban renewal. How does international relations relate to IGR?
Derek Powell: We are looking into this. We are doing a lot of support work in terms of the region and SADC, and we are formally instituting local government as a desk with SADC.
We live in an age were we're creating new knowledge all the time, we are actually generating knowledge because of the extent of global communication, although this may be asymmetrical - and we can question whether we are always getting better information. But looking at municipalities in a globalising world, they have become transnational entities, and I don't know that any government is able to pronounce absolutely on this evolution. There is World Bank and United Nations research on the relationship between the centre and decentralised local government, and everything in between. We are also looking at municipal twinning agreements to see if the policy framework is adequate. This area is also about better information and about using it better.
Sithole Mbanga: There is also the NEPAD Cities Programme, is this maybe lagging behind the premier NEPAD programme?
Derek Powell: There was quite a lot of discussion on the role of local government at the United Cities and Local Governments conference, at the institutional and structural level. There are a number of African countries that are going through a process of consolidating structures of government. The Democratic Republic of Congo, for instance, that the Department is supporting led by the Minister. Ethiopia too is interested in out IDPs and performance management systems, and we are supporting the Ethiopian government to look into these things.
Sithole Mbanga: Johannesburg also has a strong programme going with Addis Ababa.
One of the issues that has arisen for us in the Cities Network is that of retaining knowledge. As we prepare for the upcoming municipal elections, should we be putting in place mechanisms to retain knowledge, given the changes that may take place at political and administrative level?
Derek Powell: The retention of knowledge is important in any system of government. Part of what we addressed when we held the IDP hearings was the question of change. We were trying to craft a baseline for new municipal leadership and retain the knowledge and lessons from two generations of IDPs. Change is a fact of life, but what we want to create is as much stability and predictability as possible within the intergovernmental system, to enable us to focus on the tasks at hand - tackling poverty and developing the economy.
Sithole Mbanga: It has been two and a half years since the Cities Network was established. DPLG, SALGA and the nine cities are firmly on board, we are working with Public Works and the Department of Trade and Industry - there are a lot of people coming on board. How can it be of value to you in and the Intergovernmental Relations section, since it is not just about cities?
Derek Powell: It is very interesting how when we develop things they take on a life of their own. The SACN has really found a niche, and we saw this at the metros hearing.
We would like to have a discussion with the SACN, as our branch management about how we can pool resources more effectively and strategically. In particular in our economic analysis of the cities and land in particular - the utilisation of land as an asset. As a national official I would like to see more work done in this area of municipal economics, specifically equitable land use. Also urban and rural dynamics and how they play out is a real niche, and understanding this better will benefit decision-making by local and national government.
RELATED LINKS:
Presentation for Seminar
